In Blogworld I've run across two extreme views on the kids ministry spectrum.
This guy does not allow children in the service at his church. His rationale is that kids can be distracting to worshipers and that church can be boring to kids. He doesn't want kids to grow up hating church so they provide a cool, fun and exciting program specifically for them. He claims that he does this not out of a disdain for children or a devaluing of them. He says that the way to truly value kids and minister to them is to create great programs just for them. But still, to say you DO NOT ALLOW kids in the service just seems harsh and rubs me the wrong way.
This woman, and I know there are many others in her camp, thinks that separate kids programs are detrimental to families and to the church. If it were up to her there would be no more Sunday Schools and Children's Churches. Kids and youth would worship together with their families. I don't agree with this extreme either. In fact she makes the last guy sound like he's the one who is getting it right.
So what do you think? Do kids have a place in 'big church'? Are there other ways to welcome and include them in the church body while running age specific programs? Can't we just have our cake and eat it too?
Thursday, February 15, 2007
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8 comments:
Well - my first gut reaction is this --- who is this lady? Is there anythig else that qualifies her to speak about effective ministry to children besides the fact that she figured out how to sign up for and post a blogspot account?
I know who Perry Noble is and You cannot deny the fact that they are doing some incredible things as a church - for a better look and feel of what thier ministry to children is like check out the blog of thier children's pastor:
http://www.pudgehuckaby.com/
Thanks Jamie! I was wondering if their kids pastor (and some of the other big bloggers' kids people)had blogs. I'll check it out! I'd love to see your blogroll sometime!
For me, as much as those who minister are leaders, whether we're ministers or not we're all called to serve.
We're called to first serve the Living God and His best interests, to represent Him and what we understand about His thoughts, attitudes, preferences. He's the boss boss who also came to serve.
We're called to serve the people He brings us - whatever their ages, abilities, disablibities, personal or family situations.
In the church, we polarize about this and that. We divide ourselves over everything. But how will we love one another? How will we be one body?
The world that the church lives to serve changes from generation to generation. Some things stay the same. Some things change. The church is the church, the Bride of Christ, her identity founded in the scriptures.
I don't know what the answer is. When you think you've found another way to love people and it ends up dividing them, yet again, what do you do?
these are my thoughts?
I think it's important to have kids in church for the following reasons:
- it's good for kids to get used to be in church, though I think the service for the time they are in, should acknowledge their presence. Not that it should be all 'kiddy' but appropriate for all ages.
- kids are able to see their parents worship and pray and are able to do these things with them. If done well, this time can be really helpful for parents who weren't raised as Christians and who don't have a model for how to talk about faith with their kids.
I struggle with a couple of points that Nobel makes including the statement about parents 'needing the hour to hear from the Lord'. Yes - this is important!! However Kids NEED to see their parents worship the Lord.
It seems incredibly extreme to say that 'we refuse to partner with parents who wish to teach their children that God and church are irrelevant to their lives..It takes HARD WORK to make church relevant for all ages and a good place for kids to be, even for only 5-10 minutes. I Noble is making a pretty extremem judgement on families who like to worship together. It's very nice to say if you want to worship as a family do it on your own time, but so many don't know HOW to - it's our job to equip and support them in this!
ARGH!!! Such a narrow view - I can see the benefits but I think the reaosns given are quite judgemental and lacking in pastoral care and support...
as for the lady - well WOW!! I can't even bring myself to read her whole site. Also find it a bit difficult that she doesn't allow comments- no opportunity to engage with others or hear different points of view. Teachable?? Anyway, what I wanted to say to her in response to her post 'Can Sunday School help anyone?' was YES - it helped me. I am a Christian because of Sunday School. That was where I learnt that JEsus loved me and died for me. My parents took my to church but we didn't talk about faith at home or read Bible stories so the only input I got was at church. If it wasn't for those who did children's ministry I wouldn't be a Christian. I'd also like to say that I didn't even LIKE Sunday School when I was little, but they taught me the truth, and God graciously called me to be His own and now I'm in the privildged role of helping others to learn and respond to Jesus.
WoW - I am feeling quite fired about over this...sorry if I'm coming across a bit strong...Wow!
by the way I am relatively new to all this - and am currently working on resources to help equip and support parents to talk about faith with their kids which is probably why I am quite fired up about this topic. I think it's naiive of us to think we can do it all on a Sunday morning. While I am an example of conversion through Sunday School - the real growth and development of faith must happen in the home for children to grow up with a great love and understanding of the Lord.
Anyway, it's kind of my 'hobby horse' at the moment, as are these...
www.sundayclubleaders.blogspot.com
www.faithtogether.blogspot.com
Surely others must have thoughts on this topic???
Also, Jamie - thanks for the link, very helpful & Margie - you post is very gracious & humble (unlike mine - sorry about that!)
This may come across short, not meant to, just trying to actually keep it short. :)
First...
At NewSpring we don't "refuse" to work with families! We work with families more than most know. To make that claim shows ignorance...do your research, then make your claim.
Second...
Our vision isn't harsh and we don't "segregate" the family. The main reason kids are lead to worship in the "children's ministry" is because "big church" is too boring for them and not on their level. Also, the line "we want to worship as a family" translates to "I am a parent and what I want matters more than my child learning with other children about Jesus on their level."
Third...
Growing up in "big church" bored me to hell! Yes I said HELL! My dad was the pastor and I love my dad and he did a great job, but it wasn't geared for kids! WE LOVE kids and families at NewSpring and they are VERY HIGH on our priority list. I encourage you all to check out this post (http://www.pudgehuckaby.com/?p=9 & http://www.pudgehuckaby.com/?p=10)that I put up a while back...
Fourth...
Thanks Jamie for the link! :)
Hey pudge,
Thanks for your comments - I did actually try to find out more from your sites but couldn't see much about the partnering with families stuff. Can you direct me to a link which talks about how you do this?
Also the 'refuse' comment is actually a direct quote from the inital Nobel argument, not something something written in reaction. I was actually quite struck by the extreme language he used when writing about it. I'm sorry that you were bored when you were a kid & it's awesome that you love kids so much & clearly seek to convey this in your ministry to them. I still think the article by your pastor articulated, rightly or wrongly, are fairly harsh stance on having kids in church and didn't talk about the importance of equipping families to talk about faith together. As I've said already, I am fairly new to this and very interested to find out how other churches help the parents in their midst with this issue, so any links/directions you can send my way to help me see how others do it would be appreciated.
Just a question:
Why do churches feel so compelled to always be "entertaining" the kids?
I am an education coordinator at my church, and we do have Sunday school, which we have had for many years, for 45 minutes following the service.
However, during the service, we have Children's Church. My pastor thinks this is a good idea because, as was mentioned in these discussions, children so often "get bored" during worship with their parents because it is a service that is "not on their level." My pastor said Children's Church would be for students in grades pre-K-2nd grade. By third grade, she said, kids should be able to sit through the regular church service.
But I can't help but think that Children's Church is largely a vanity. Mainly, this is because I never had children's church growing up and now, as an adult and employee at my church, I find myself leading children's church every Sunday --because parents and other adults do not want to miss the church service (and they think I want to miss it?).
Essentially, at least in my church, Children's Church is no more than a babysitting service for kids for 30-45 minutes. We already have Sunday school geared toward kids -- isn't that enough? Also, why can't parents have coloring books, activities, Cheerioes, etc., to keep the kids quiet during church? And don't parents want to expose their kids to "big worship" so that they can "take in" the worship experience on some level, even if they can't "understand" it right away? How does leaving the church service to take part in "Children's Church" help kids understand and absorb the worship experience in their church -- they're not there!
I come from a relatively small church, with 8-10 kids taking part in Children's Church each week during the school year (we don't have it in summer). I have had just one parent interested in helping me with Children's Church. Otherwise, no one steps up. I was in my church's choir for 13 years, but no more, because I always have to "do backflips" (figuratively) to entertain a bunch of entitled kids. No wonder they get bored easily with church-they're so used to being entertained all of the time!
Sorry to sound bitter, but I guess I am. I think a lot of what to expect from the worship experience should come from the parents. In my view, church shouldn't be an entertainment center, it should be church. Even adults get bored occasionally. Yet, I feel that if a parent wants to set an example about the "how" and "why" of the worship experience, then they have to do that in the context of the worship experience, not by carting them off to some activity-laden-glorified-Sunday school.
Just the opinion of a burned-out church worker...
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